karl:

If all living genera were on board the ark as you say, then how did they
all fit? Were there aquariums for all the fish with specific salinity
requirements? Were there level 4 biohazard facilties for dangerous
microbes? How did Noah get the redwoods from California onto the ark?
How did Noah control termites? What kind of bilge pump did he use? How
did he maintain an aviary for the birds, all of whom could not survive
40 days of inundation by flying outside the ark during the whole time?
How did he keep tigers and hyenas from fighting over scraps of extinct
elephant and cattle meat?

You haven't even begun to answer ANY of these and many other questions
posed to you. Are you accepting that evolution of species within genera
is possible? Then you must accept that evolution happens, and all that
garbage you posted about woodpeckers has been debunked by you.
Woodpeckers can evolve step by step from ancestors not unlike
Archeopteryx. You are debunking yourself. If all living biodiversity
stemmed from genera that could fit on the ark, we have a major
engineering problem on our hands. I just cannot see how you can
rationalize the belief that all extant plant and animal genera could fit
on an ark and speciate relatively quickly (rapid cladogenesis) upon
landing, when you and other creationists are arguing that speciation
does not occur. Stop evading karl. Take a deep breath, collect yourself
and give us a post that FULLY explains how the ark bottleneck
transpired. If evolution does not occur, then all species, not genera,
needed to be on board he ark. These species include: fish, birds,
elephants, tigers, alligators, crocodiles, pigs, cattle, redwoods, elms,
cypress, pine, Sabal palms, royal palms, saw palmetto, cycads, cheetahs,
lynx, bobcats, panthers, rabbits, guinea pigs, field mice, beach mice,
rats, boas, mambas, cobras, crotalids, coral snakes, Gila monsters,
pandas, grizzlies, brown bears, bees, bamboo, Spenodon, rhinos, hippos,
grasses, sedges, citrus, ....  Noah must have racked up some frequent
flier miles. What happened to the dinosaurs in your model? Did they not
make it onto the ark? Or were they too big to fit?

                                 Scott Chase

Scott Chase thinks;
³Let's say a couple thousand species can fit on an ark (plant and animal)
given limitations of space, food, and sewage disposal. Upon landing of
that ark, those thousands of species must have given rise to the
multitudes extant today. How could this happen if there is fixity of
species? This post-ark speciation rate would dwarf those proposed by any
evolutionary biologist. Even punc-eq does not assume this kind of rapid
radiation. Comparing the time period from the ark landing to present and
the geological ages that evolutionists use in explaining speciation, I
would say creation theory requires more rapid cladogenesis than evolution.
The ark bottleneck would be analogous to a mass extinction. The period
afterword would be an adaptive radiation. How can you renconcile this,
blosser. If species have been fixed in number at creation, how can you
account for the present level of biodiversity after the ark landing?²

                                              Scott Chase

One thing you seem to  forget  is that we are NOT talking about the
evolution of new ³Genera²  or ³Family² of animal species.  What we are
talking about with the POST FLOOD animals is the shuffling around of
biological information already present within the species.  This is not an
issue of the creation model requireing more rapid evolutionary process
than evolution.  

The creationist point of view is that new species have MICRO-evolved since
their release from the ark of Noah.  All though Scott Chase builds the
strawman argument with this line from his statement from his post above
³How could this happen if there is fixity of species?².  Clearly the
creationist do not claim a fixity of species, even though Scott Chase
claims we do. Please correct your post in the future Scott.  

Scott Chase, as presented to you before with the examples of the 873 kinds
of rodentia  that could have been on the ark there was clearly a large
amount of biodiversity avialable.  Why do you claim there wasn't? That¹s
873 different species of rodentia Scott...873.  
Once again,
Keep in mind, as another example, there were not just 1 kind of monkeys
(primates) on the ark...there were 206 kinds of primates to speciate from
in 4,000 years.

After their release from the ark the speciation would have grown and have
been facilitated at an exponential rate due to the changing
characteristics of the enviroment coupled with the also changing physical
conditions of their surroundings. Currently things are a bit more settled
and the world wide niches are not changing at the same rate which led to
the rapid speciation.
Open a book on cats and you'll quickly see the variety avialable to us
today.  From what I read these types of cats all came from the Egyptians
cat. But then again... one could argue all the styles of cats and dogs,
for that matter have also exceeded the rate of current evolution as you
suggest.

--
+++++++++++++
see ya,
karl
+++++++++++++
        The evidence for evolution is found in the "GAPS"
       and  currently is filled in with biased imagination,
                speculation and plaster of paris.

You seem to have missed a major point in Karl's arguements. He doesn't
worship the God of the Bible, he may not have even read the Bible. The only
book I know for sure that he has read is John Woodmorrappe's book on
the Ark. And from the sounds of it he gets all his ideas of  'God' and creation
and Noah's flood from there. And he doesn't even understand what he read.
Note, he won't answer the questions because either Woody did not mention
them, or  he is unable to find the answers in the book. He himself has no
clue as to what you are asking.
 I came to this conclusion after reading Woodmorappe's book myself and
recognizing that most of Karl's arguements regarding the flood come almost
verbatim from the book.

Dick (Chris) Craven
Professor of Modern Humor from the ICR
University of Ediacara
email: di...@oz.net
Homepage http:/www.oz.net/~dickc

In the ark's aquariums must have been all aquatic species that could not
tolerate the salinity changes. I'm not sure what the average salinity of
a flooded Earth would work out to, I'd assume it would approximate an
estuary or other brackish intermediate area. Only those species that
could tolerate these conditions would not need the protection of an ark.

These aquariums needed to be constantly regulated for salinity, pH, and
nitrogen fixation. In addition to this, many pumps would be required for
oxygenation of the water.The water temperature would need constant
monitoring.

The birds would need to sequestered from any predators (eachother in
many cases). Face it, only the hardiest marine or otherwise aquatic
species of birds might fend away from the ark. I do not think a
hummingbitrd could fare well, flying constantly for 40 days, buffetted
by heavy rain and winds, with its honeysuckle food source under a column
of water. The vultures would be well suited for the ark enclosure. They
could feast on all the dead animals.

                                         Scott Chase

And the great thing about Johns book...he PROVED the ark was possible and
he showed how Noah could have easily accomplished the task.

--
+++++++++++++
see ya,
karl
+++++++++++++
        The evidence for evolution is found in the "GAPS"
       and  currently is filled in with biased imagination,
                speculation and plaster of paris.

In article <63jbun$a7...@newsd-102.bryant.webtv.net>, ant...@webtv.net

It has already been an established fact that all of the animals could have
fit on the ark with plenty of room to spare.

BACKGROUND:
The median size animal in the animal kingdom is about the size of a  house
cat or small rodent.
Of course one knows that and elephant is large and requires much more
space than a cat, but, we also must remember that a mouse is small and
requires much less space than a cat.  In the animal kingdom it should also
be mentioned that there is also more smaller animals than larger animals.
Approximately 11% of the animals on the ark would have been bigger than a
sheep.  Keep in mind that the animal size would also have been greatly
reduced by bringing onboard infants at the start of the flood.

THE MODEL:
 I suggest that the  average size cage on the ark could have been
3¹x1.5¹x1.5¹  which will allow a pair of animals 6.75 cubic feet of room
to move around in.  The cage size is the same as a crate that I  purchased
from a pet store to put our new puppy in.  

The question is, how many 3¹x1.5¹x1.5¹ cages could be placed on the ark?  
The ark was 450¹ long by 75¹ wide and  45¹ tall.  Using these figures each
of the three levels would then be 450¹x75¹x15¹.  To be on the conservative
side lets subtract 2¹ from each level to make up for the amount of timber
required to construct the flooring, and 2¹ from each wall for its
construction.
Each floor would them measure 450¹x71¹x13¹.

The space on the ark will then be divided up equally for the cages,  room
for food and other items. That is 1/2 of the ark for the animals and 1/2
of the ark for  Noah and his family, food, supplies, etc.

therefore, half of 450 or,
225¹x71¹x13¹ will be the measurements used for the calculations.
and
3¹x1.5¹x1.5¹ will be used for the cage size.
and
2¹ will be used for the width of the aisle between cages.

WIDTH (71¹)  PLACEMENT OF CAGES:
The cages  in this model will be placed back to back allowing cages to
share an aisle in the same way a supermarket shares their aisles.

The first row of cages will be placed against the wall, thus requiring
only 3¹ for the cage and 2¹ for the aisle.

The remaining cage sets will require 8¹ per row. That is 3¹ for first
cage, 3¹ for 2nd cage and 2¹ for the aisle way.

The last row, on the opposite side of the ark from the first row, will be
placed against the wall just as the first row was placed. No aisle
calculation is needed seeing how the 2² is already figured in with the
proceeding row of cages.  (see figure 1)

Using the 71¹ of available width, we should be able to  place a total of
8.875 rows.  (71¹ of ark width divided by  8¹ needed for cages)
or to be conservative, dropping the .875,  8 rows using up 64¹ of the 71¹
of available ark width.
Each row consist of 2 cages , therefore, 16 cages can be positioned across
the ark leaving 16¹ to be divided up for aisle width.
***********************************************
figure 1. (see note 1 at bottom of article)

arrangement of cages and aisles    
                     front of ark
w|c|a|c|c|a|c|c|a|c|c|a|c|c|a|c|c|a|c|c|a|c|c|a|c|w (x 8 high and 150 long)
w=wall
c=cage
a=aisle
or
3 2 3 3 2 3 3 2 3 3 2 3 3 2 3 3 2 3 3 2 3 3 2 3  = 64 feet (walls not included)
**************************************************
STACKED:
Each cage is 1.5² high and the ceiling height in our model is 13¹
high.(15'- 2' for floor timber)
13¹ divided by 1.5¹ equals  8.6 cages high  or to be conservative, 8 cages
high once again dropping the .6 fraction.

LENGTH OF ROW:
The length of the ark is 450¹ but in our calculations we will use 225¹ or
half of the available ark space.
therefore,
225¹ divided by the 1.5¹ cage width equals,  150 caged in the row.

The total amount of cages then placed on 1/2 of the ark  is,

16 cages wide by, 8 cages high  by, 150 cages long.
or
19,200  cages per level.
or
19,200 cages times 3 levels
 is
 a total of 57,600 cages.    (keep in mind this is using one half of the ark.)

Each cage can hold a pair of animals
or
 room for 115,200 animals on half of the ark.

Note 1. The model above assumes that every animal was the same size and
requires the same amount of space and cage size. Obviously in the real
world, Noah would not have stacked/arranged the ark in this fashion.  
This model was designed to show that 115,200 animals could be placed  on
one half of the arks available storage space.

Scott Chase...you really must learn to think outside of your closed box.  

next question.

--
+++++++++++++
see ya,
karl
+++++++++++++
        The evidence for evolution is found in the "GAPS"
       and  currently is filled in with biased imagination,
                speculation and plaster of paris.

In article <34673e1f.244888...@snews.zippo.com>,

Well, as a Zoo is not stuffed into a small boat and doesn't rely on a
single family of Desert Nomads to run it, and it has access to unlimited
fresh food supplies I don't see the comparison.

Shooty

Well, then it should be child's play for you to look at this list and
tell us which of these animals "microevolved".

African elephant,
leopard seal,
Indian elephant,
Wooly mammoth,
white rhinoceros,
pigmy hippopatomus,
aurochs,
chimpanzee,
hyrax
gorilla,
human,
howler monkey,
domestic cat,
walrus,
domestic dog,
chicken,
grey wolf,
red fox,
jackal,
hyena,
cheetah,
lion,
pigeon,
Siberian tiger,
golden mole
puma,
naked mole rat,
gopher,
sperm whale,
white-tail deer,
moose,
reindeer,
eagle,
musk ox,
ostrich,
norwegian rat,
koala bear,
emu,
panda bear,
dolphin,
grizzly bear,
polar bear,
spiny anteater,
armadillo,
opossum,
rabbit,
loon,
kangaroo,
brown mouse,
lynx,
red squirrel,
grey squirrel,
black rat,
humpback whale,
eleophant shrew
pedigree siberian hamster,
flying squirrel,
orca,
fruit bat,
vampire bat,
orangutan,
alligator,
dodo,
crocodile,
caiman,
Komodo dragon,
vulture,
smilodon,
dire wolf,
kiwi,
weasel,
otter,
Holstein cow,
stoat,
ferret,
bandicoot,
coyote,
skunk,
badger,
wolverine,
manatee
frog,
toad,
porcupine,

In your answer, please provide evidence that any particular "kind"
was created, and not "microevolved". And don't skip any details.

******************************************************************
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Planetech Services                                       -Hobbes
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In article <34653cd3.244556...@snews.zippo.com>,

Where's the calculation needed?

To build a boat of th size indicated in the Bible with the materials
available isn't possible. The biggest all wooden boats built were smaller.
19th Century USA had the longest all wooden hulls and they were failures,
the timber wasn't strong enough to support it's own weight in any kind of
seaway. These hulls weren't as big as the proposed Ark. The Royal Naval
Dockyards in the UK switched to partial iron construction for keels, ribs
and Knees back in the early 19th C.
If these highly skilled shipbuilders couldn't build that size why could
Noah and his shepherd sons be able to do it?

Shooty

In article <9711011500.AA07...@daffodil.InfoChan.COM>, cd...@InfoChan.COM

Or a Bulk Ore Carier.

And look at how many men it took to build, with how many years (or
generations) of experience, how long the timber had to season, how many
tons of copper and iron nails were used, how many miles of rope, how many
hundred gallons of pitch etc.

The Royal Navy had its own ropeworks at Chatham, in fact they are still
there along with everything else dating back 200 years to the time Victory
was built. It's a huge place. The modern industrial mass production didn't
start with Henry Ford, it started at Chatham, the ropework buildings are
over quarter of a mile long (length of a rope). The Mill where the wooden
rigging blocks were produced has some of the first automated machines,
hundreds were needed for each ship. Soaking ponds for timber look like
small lakes and the docks where the hulls were built are probably the
biggest 200 year old wooden sheds you will ever see.

The oldest one looks like the upturned hull of a ship supported on wooden
pillars. alongside arte three cast victorian structures and next to them
two modern ones.

The RN stopped using the dockyards in the eighties and now t's a working museum.
The Ropeworks are still in commercial production though. The smell of pitch
and hemp is ingrained into their structure, its wonderful, the 'Ropewalks'
while having outer walls of brick are all wooded inside and they have three
stories, fibres (natural and man made) go in the top and rope comes out the
door.

Shooty

No, he didn't. All he did was show that gullible people would but any book that
made ridicoulous claims about the Bible. He provided very few answers, raised
far more questions than he started out to answer and insulted anyone with more
than 3 braincells.

Dick (Chris) Craven
Professor of Modern Humor from the ICR
University of Ediacara
email: di...@oz.net
Homepage http:/www.oz.net/~dickc

In article <ksjj-0311970541350...@max6-30.phl.fast.net>, k...@fast.net

Really? So where's the duplicate ark that he built which proved this?

Without this, he proved nothing except how to tell a good story.

Nick

You ask for the impossible: an argument from Karl that is
not pseudo-scientific???

Empty rhetoric is what he should stop with.

Bye

 Daneel [a#323]  (usto...@cs.elte.hu)
**************************************************
  God is dead.         _Nietsche
  Nietsche is dead.    _God

On 31 Oct 1997, Scott McMahan wrote:

Nope.  Here's what happened.  The dinos somehow heard of the
impending inundantion.  Worried, they stampeded toward the ark -
all of them, not just pairs.  Noah got wind of this, decided
(correctly, I think) that this might throw a wrench into his
plans, thus he sailed without them.  The dinos became extinct.

See Mark Twain's _Letters from the Earth_ for a fuller account
taken from letters written by an eyewitness.

Rich Fox, Anthro, Usouthdakota

I've misplaced my calculator, so I will not critique karl's mathematics
at this time. I would like to make two observations about Noah, now that
karl has shown me the light.

1.Noah had racked up some frequent flier miles. Without the use of a
fleet of military transport planes, he would have been hard-pressed to
collect specimens from all ends of the Earth.

2.Noah had a Pet Smart discount card. To buy all the necessary cages,
aquariums, accessories, and food required for the ark's journey Noah
would have needed one heck of a bank account. He probably didn't get
many donations since all his fellow humans probably thought him a bit
out there, with all the talk of world destruction and all.

                                           Scott Chase

...
|> Nope.  Here's what happened.  The dinos somehow heard of the
|> impending inundantion.  Worried, they stampeded toward the ark -
|> all of them, not just pairs.  Noah got wind of this, decided
|> (correctly, I think) that this might throw a wrench into his
|> plans, thus he sailed without them.  The dinos became extinct.
|>
|> See Mark Twain's _Letters from the Earth_ for a fuller account
|> taken from letters written by an eyewitness.

    If *I* were a "creationist", this is what I would say ... so as
to remain consistent with (1) all kinds were saved on the Ark and
(2) dinosaurs became extinct ... the obvious conclusion is that
dinosaurs were not of any *kind*.  Presumably, the dinosaurs and
others were part of the corruption that man had worked on the earth
(perhaps by genetic engineering experiments), and thus had to be
destroyed as monstrous, not part of the good creation.

    If I were a creationist, that is, that's what I'd say.

--
Tom Scharle         scharl...@nd.edu       "standard disclaimer"

In article <ksjj-0111971005430...@max8-32.phl.fast.net>,

I forgot Rule #1 when reading a KarlPost (tm). Never, ever, EVER
be consuming a beverage (particularly a carbonated one) when reading
Karl. It makes a huge mess when you burst out laughing.

        Rick Gillespie

In article <345d129...@news.ic.sunysb.edu>, bi...@life.bio.sunysb.edu
says...

[snip]

Unless I'm mistaken, that'd be me [small bow...]. [Do I get royalties if it
catches on? ;-)]

First used it a short while back when Karl reposted one of his real oldies
[whales or woodpeckers, I forget which]. He'd have a little credibility if
he acknowledged any of the many previous criticisms or if he even corrected
any of the simple factual errors that were pointed out the first time he
posted them. It seems he doesn't understand his own [plagiarized?] postings
well enough to be able to make changes in them.

cheers

Because plentiful evidence exists showing a change from one genus to another.
Karl doesn't want to have to keep moving the goalposts.

____________________________________________________________
Tom Swanson    |  "I have a cunning plan that cannot fail"
TRIUMF         |                               S Baldrick

  L    L                                       B Waggoner

And I keep telling you guys that Noah used a late-stone-age version of
PKZIP or GZIP,  and, with selective breeding, created a single
representative pair of the each genus that contained all the DNA from
the other members of that genus (after which he UUENCODEd them).
Afterward, he merely UUDECODEd and decompressed, with selective
breeding again, the DNA and *PRESTO*CHANGE-O* all the species in that
genus were restored.

Email address has been munged to prevent spam. Please
remove 'nothing.but.' to generate correct address.

Landis D. Ragon
Chief Elf in the toy factory...

In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

It's the grouping of animals that is *just* narrow enough to divide todays
biodiversity into the maximum number of representative "kinds" that can fit
on a huge boat.  The particulars regarding which animals belong to which
genera are irrelevant.  In other words... take the number of living species
and divide by the number of dead animals you can cram into a ship's hull.
That's the number of animals per genus.  Start finding animals and assign
them until each genus is filled.  If a genus is full when you find an animal
that looks similar... stick it into a genus with room to spare.  You see...
we have *proof* that a floating pet cemetery populated the planet!  You
scientists use such circular arguments...
================================================
Bill Caldecutt
Dept. of Ecology and Evolution
State University of New York at Stony Brook
================================================
"If only I had a clever quote for the bottom of my messages..."
          Bill Caldecutt (1997)

Now quit confusing 'karl with science.  There are other definitions of the
word "proof", such as any argument that 'karl can understand.
================================================
Bill Caldecutt
Dept. of Ecology and Evolution
State University of New York at Stony Brook
================================================
"If only I had a clever quote for the bottom of my messages..."
          Bill Caldecutt (1997)

I've misplaced my calculator, so I will not critique karl's mathematics
at this time. I would like to make two observations about Noah, now that
karl has shown me the light.

1.Noah had racked up some frequent flier miles. Without the use of a
fleet of military transport planes, he would have been hard-pressed to
collect specimens from all ends of the Earth.

2.Noah had a Pet Smart discount card. To buy all the necessary cages,
aquariums, accessories, and food required for the ark's journey Noah
would have needed one heck of a bank account. He probably didn't get
many donations since all his fellow humans probably thought him a bit
out there, with all the talk of world destruction and all.

                                           Scott Chase

Maybe there were no monotypic genera that were indigenous to other
continents before the flood.  There was a representative of every extant
(that means "living", 'karl) genus within traveling distance of Noahs home
address.
================================================
Bill Caldecutt
Dept. of Ecology and Evolution
State University of New York at Stony Brook
================================================
"If only I had a clever quote for the bottom of my messages..."
          Bill Caldecutt (1997)

karl:

You surfaced long enough to insult Bill Caldecutt, now try to answer all
of our questions without resorting to pseudo-scientific ramblings.

                                   Scott Chase

Thanks for your concern, but I'm not insulted... I figured I knew how to
lure 'karl out from under his bed (with a strawman decoy, of-course.... he
flocks to them).  So, please let me know if he actually responds to any
postings directed at him without simply evading them.  I won't hold my
breath... unless there's another flood.  I would rather risk the water than
an overcrowded, disease infested, broken-hulled, floating pet cemetery.
================================================
Bill Caldecutt
Dept. of Ecology and Evolution
State University of New York at Stony Brook
================================================
"If only I had a clever quote for the bottom of my messages..."
          Bill Caldecutt (1997)

In article <ksjj-0211971918330...@max5-38.phl.fast.net>,
   k...@fast.net ('karl) wrote:

Only once, if you provide some evidence.

 "This boy is Ignorance.  This girl is     |  Want to know what evolution
 Want.  Beware them both, and all of their |  is really about?  See the
 degree, but most of all beware this boy,  |  talk.origins archive
 for on his brow I see that written which  |
 is Doom..."                               |   http://www.talkorigins.org
          - Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"   |
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